https://www.dianomi.com/click.epl?pn=141138&offer=35976565&savid=365095&can_cookie=1&unique_id=aP6BP4no72ybcG8oCFvYEwAAACA&adv=75916&said=71495&cf=456.3057.Hotcopper&smartreferer=https%3A%2F%2Fhotcopper.com.au%2Fthreads%2Fann-podcast-of-interview-with-mrg-chairman-andrew-van-der-zwan.6093293%2Fpage-3%3Fpost_id%3D53613381